I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet... 1 Timothy 2:12
The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. 1 Corinthians 14:34
Currently, there is an excellent post on the proper role of women in the church at Thinklings. Of course, this is a topic that people generally have very passionate opinions about.
I have to admit, this isn't a subject I have given much thought to until now. However, the newest associate pastor at my church is a woman and I am joining the church on Sunday. So, when I read Jared's post, It made me stop and think about my own opinions and beliefs about this controversial subject. Was Paul merely responding to a problem the early church faced? If so, what are we to make of his reference to created order immediately following his prohibition on women teaching or exercising authority over men? Was Paul somehow limited in his thinking because of the culture he lived in? If so, doesn't it damage the claim of inspiration and infallibility of the scripture to assert that Paul could have been culturally biased?
I could go on and on with questions that arise in my mind when I think about this issue. Its an interesting topic. I would love to hear your views.
7 comments:
You know mine too...but hi...
and a question.
If a married women has spiritual authority in the church, it follows that she has the same authority over her husband.
What if there's a problem with her...can her husband have spiritual authority over his wife...if she has spiritual authority over him?
Or what if he's the one with the issue...how awkward for a wife to follow the Biblical mandate of a submissive wife - while she's exercising church discipline over him...
just something to ponder...
Hi ladies.
Interesting question, Ellen. I will have to give it some thought. The first thing that comes to my mind would be that in that situation, it may be a conflict of interest for her to be the one to exercise church discipline over her husband. I would consider it more appropriate for a third party to intervene. Most churches have a session or governing board where such matters can be addressed. If the problem is with the wife, that too would be an issue to be addressed by those leaders in authority over her, assuming the problem is related to her position as a leader in the church. If it is personal in nature, and does not directly impact her role in the church, then I see no reason why the husband couldn't address the issue privately.
Even if the wife is not in a position of authority in the church, wouldn't it be equally awkward if the husband is supposed to be the spiritual head of his household, but has fallen into error or sin and is no longer leading his wife in the right direction? What is the wife to do then?
Thanks for the thought provoking insight.
I don’t really understand the controversy here, either we accept the plain meaning of the passages or we are being disobedient. The text is as clear as day. If the Holy Spirit through Paul wanted to communicate the proper roles of the woman in church, there could be no clearer language used. Where does the Bible hint at proper cultural interpretation? Once we insert our own interpretations of the text we undermine scripture altogether, leaving anything open to ‘cultural’ reinterpretation. Once we reinterpret a plain meaning of scripture in order to fulfill our desires in church government we remove Christ as being the Head of the church, placing an idol of our own creation in His place. “Church sessions”, “church governing boards” are also of man’s creation, and not found in the scriptures. Instead, Acts, Titus, and 1 Tim make it very clear how church government should be: Elder rule. And the qualifications of an elder are not met by just anybody.
If you’re considering joining a church that has ignored such a clear and plain meaning of scripture so that they can have a woman pastor, what else will they choose to ignore? Will the adopt homosexuality and claim cultural relevance? What about polygamy? Why not throw out the elder qualifications altogether and just let anyone rule the church? If you desire to obey the scriptures, I’d turn and run from that church…
(Oh, that was a rough post; please understand that I’m not trying to be rude, just trying to show you how vitally important this issue is).
SDG
Nathan,
I appreciate and respect your opinion. Have you read any of the discussion that I linked to at The Thinklings? I think its a pretty comprehensive collection of the views on these passages.
In any event, I feel that the church I attend is where God wants me to be. I know that the holy spirit is active in our congregation. I have grown so much in my faith and walk with God because of my involvement there and participation in women's bible study groups. Before I found this church, I had been to churches all over town and I never felt it was where God wanted me to be. I was at this church before the female associate pastor. But, I have to say that things have only gotten better since she came. She is really sincere and dedicated to serving God and reaching out to those who need Jesus Christ.
I can't see this happening, but if my church suddenly embraced homosexuality and some of the other things you mentioned, I would definitely leave. I just don't see this issue as being on the same level.
You metioned the church's abandonment of the "plain meaning" of the scripture. Without opening a whole new can of worms, I find that kinda ironic. Calvinism is famous for interpreting verses outside of their "plain meaning", if there is such a thing. All I can say is that if it were so "plain" we wouldn't have nearly 9,000 different Protestant denominations.
Oh, and before anyone gets excited, I am not disagreeing with the way Calvinists interpret scripture. I am just pointing out that you can't always rely on "plain meaning."
Thanks for the response Gina, here are some thoughts I had as I read:
You said: I think its a pretty comprehensive collection of the views on these passages.
I have read a little of the Thinklings. However, I’m not real concerned about the different views on the passage. I am more concerned about the ridiculous notion that Paul was a sexist or that there is some cultural relevance in the commands of scripture. The issue with me is not the woman issue –that’s as clear as day and consequences will be suffered for rejecting the plain meaning- the issue for me is the failure to take scripture as the only authority. This is where all kinds of heresies, traditions, ‘doctrines of men’, feelings, etc come in and take over where God has spoken.
You said: In any event, I feel that the church I attend is where God wants me to be.
With all due respect Gina, to you and your church, but what you feel inside does not surpass Biblical truth; and does not reflect what God wants for your life. His word reflects what He wants for your life. Again the issue becomes the importance of scripture (sola scriptora). Unless we take scripture as our only and final command, understanding that all of our own logic and feelings are tainted by sin (Jer 17:9), then our thoughts, feelings, traditions, etc will lead us down the wrong path. A shepherd (pastor) who the Bible says is not really a shepherd is not a true shepherd, but a false shepherd –and you think God wants you under a false shepherd? How can God want you in a place that ignores such a clear command in His word? Has He not spoken in His word? Should we not determine where God wants us by the word which He has spoken?
You said: I have to say that things have only gotten better since she came. She is really sincere and dedicated to serving God and reaching out to those who need Jesus Christ.
Just because things have gotten better do not mean that God is smiling down on disobedience. Outward appearances are no gauge for obedience and Godliness. But I have no doubt that she is sincere and dedicated to serving God; but God will not be mocked. If she puts herself in a leadership position over other men, she is not a pastor by Biblical standards, is being disobedient, and is not qualified to teach anyone at that point.
You said: I can't see this happening, but if my church suddenly embraced homosexuality and some of the other things you mentioned, I would definitely leave. I just don't see this issue as being on the same level.
It is on the same level. Because the issue really isn’t the woman thing; it’s the refusal to take scripture as final authority. That is the worse thing of all; and should be avoided like the plague.
You said: You metioned the church's abandonment of the "plain meaning" of the scripture… I find that kinda ironic. Calvinism is famous for interpreting verses outside of their "plain meaning", if there is such a thing. All I can say is that if it were so "plain" we wouldn't have nearly 9,000 different Protestant denominations.
Ah yes, I figured that would come up. :) The truth however, is that Calvinist do not reject the plain meaning of texts; they reject the popular meaning of texts. John 3:16 is the most popular and most misunderstood verse of all time. But if people would actually take the time to look at the context and the Greek, then maybe they would see that they are in error. But I find it funny that you make this claim, given that there could be no clearer language such as Acts 13:48; John 6:44; 2 Thess 2:13; Romans 9 etc. The Calvinist position is very plainly stated in scripture, but where are the verses that state man can regenerate himself autonomously out of his own free will? There are none; only assumptions that God must mean this because He commands all to do so.
There are 9,000 denominations, but are all truly Christian? Because they claim to be Christian, follow Jesus and the Bible, doest that make them truly Christian? No, if fact, many denominations believe they follow Christ when in reality the follow an idol of their own making. Most of them have the same error: failure the let scripture be the only authority. Instead, people want to believe what they feel in their heart, or the traditions of the church, or what makes everybody happy and joyful, instead of looking into the perfect mirror of truth. That is not Christianity, that is idolatry.
Again, you might think that this whole women pastor thing really fired me up, but it didnt. What's caused this reaction in me is the low view/neglect of scripture. That's the biggest cause for concern in the whole world.
SDG
"There are 9,000 denominations, but are all truly Christian? Because they claim to be Christian, follow Jesus and the Bible, doest that make them truly Christian? No, if fact, many denominations believe they follow Christ when in reality the follow an idol of their own making. Most of them have the same error: failure the let scripture be the only authority. Instead, people want to believe what they feel in their heart, or the traditions of the church, or what makes everybody happy and joyful, instead of looking into the perfect mirror of truth. That is not Christianity, that is idolatry. "
I hope you aren't suggesting that people that don't interpret the bible EXACTLY the way you do aren't really Christians and aren't really saved.
"I hope you aren't suggesting that people that don't interpret the bible EXACTLY the way you do aren't really Christians and aren't really saved."
Certainly not. It's not about me and my beliefs, its about proper exegesis of biblical text. Exegesis is the only way to learn the true meaning of scripture. Without it we're left with something like the Catholic doctrine, who believe that church tradition is on equal footing as scripture. That is a heretical and damning lie; have we learned nothing from the Pharisees?
"Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?” He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: ‘This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men— the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.” He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.... making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”" (Mark 7:5-13, NKJV)
Over and over again throughout the gospels we see Jesus warn of those who think they are honoring God yet reject His clear commands in scripture.
"“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" (Matthew 7:21-23, NKJV)
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